Episode 51: Negotiate and Build Better Relationships? - with Fotini Iconomopoulos

Clare Kumar: Those of you who already know me will know that I am compelled to speak up. I've long been a self advocate and spoken up for situations where others can be better, or better off rather. And it's interesting because I was diagnosed with autism just two months ago, and I've been on rather a deep dive recently into autism and the different traits.

And one of the things that I learned is along with being direct and clinging to logic, is that autistic people have a propensity to advocate for social justice. And my life makes so much more sense now. I'm really compelled to speak up.  Yet, because neurodivergent people are also often more emotionally responsive, emotionally reactive, highly sensitive people, I identified with that trait for almost a decade, and that's a definite part of that way of being, that can lead to unless we are really well taken care of, and can self regulate effectively, when we're under environmental stress, sensory stress, difficult emotional situations, we can then express ourselves in a less effective manner.

And so I've been very interested in talking to experts around the topic of being able to speak up and self advocate. You will know an earlier episode with Steven Shaletsky about speak up culture and how to infuse that into the workplace. Well, my guest today, I'm very, very excited to bring you a conversation with communication, negotiation, persuasion expert, Fotini Iconomopoulos. 

She is the person fortune 50 companies call to help them with high stakes negotiation. And I'm bringing her insights, strategies, tactics to you today. Harper Collins spotted her in social media posts and media and invited her to write her first and now best selling book, Say Less, Get More: unconventional negotiation techniques to get what you want. 

And this book launched to critical acclaim. She guest lectures at universities all over the world, helping students learn how to negotiate their best pay for their first jobs. And as with many topics, though, this conversation is really dominated by white men in privileged positions and I wanted to bring a different voice, a very talented voice to Happy Space listeners.

I want people to be able to connect to the person delivering this message. So all you women out there, all you people of some color of different backgrounds, with hidden challenges, please have a listen because Fotini touches on all of these things. I learned a lot from Fotini in this conversation.

We explore the biggest reason why we shy away from self advocacy, how emotions are useful, but potentially damaging to successful conversation, strategies to avoid triggering defensiveness, and considering the three reasons why people like each other, all while you're negotiating. Listen in and prepare yourself with these tactics for tough conversation. 

Clare Kumar: You’re listening to episode 51 of the Happy Space Podcast, today I’m exploring tactics for tough conversations with negotiation expert Fotini Iconomopoulos. 

Clare Kumar: Fotini, welcome to the Happy Space Podcast. Thank you for having me here. I'm so thrilled to speak with you. I mean, we're in speaking circles and I've been familiar with your work. I've read Say Less, Get More, which I think is a brilliant title, and I'm a huge fan of speaking up. So I want to start with a question about what are you noticing around the biggest challenges people have speaking up to ask for what they want.

Fotini Iconomopoulos: I'd say that. I mean, people, when people hold back, usually the feedback I hear is, well, actually there's two things. So I run negotiation workshops for clients all the time where we're in small intimate groups. And I have asked hundreds, if not thousands of people, what are your biggest fears around negotiation?

And two things come up. One is I don't want to look stupid, but the more resounding one from everybody, it doesn't matter what your background is. It doesn't matter how privileged you are. Everybody will say, I don't want to damage a relationship. And so they're worried about the consequences, not just of, could they renege on something?

Could they, you know, could they punish me for it? They just don't want to damage that relationship going forward. So, so many people will go, I'll put up with this because I don't want to damage the relationship. I'll avoid this conversation because I don't want to damage the relationship. And what I try to tell people is there are so many ways to get what you want without damaging relationships.

And in fact, I'm going to take it like super controversial and say, you can actually build better relationships by negotiating for what you want. 

Clare Kumar: Right. It's a real flip the script for people that are letting it stop them. Because as one of my friends said, you're already at no, like you're going to stay at no, or are you going to exit the whole situation?

Right. I'm seeing that too. Even I've been working with clients and there's such care for each other and at the same time holding a reluctance to have that brave and honest conversation. What do you think happens though when you're potentially a marginalized person and there's also a power differential or, um, You know, stigma or there are other consequences beyond the relationship that might be at play with speaking up to do you have any thoughts on that?

Fotini Iconomopoulos: I have a lot of thoughts on it. In fact, Harper Collins came to me a few years ago and said, we think you should write a book. They said, we think you have a book in you and I was flattered because they saw some content of mine online and so on, but I said, why another negotiation book? There's a million of them out there.

I've read a lot of them and they said, we think yours is a voice that needs to be heard. And when I started thinking it through, I mean, again, I was flattered, but it was more about, Okay. What's different about me? And I started to think through some of the bad advice I've gotten over the years. So, you know, as a woman, as a woman, whose name, a lot of people can’t pronounce as somebody who was much younger than everybody in my field.

So I was 10 to 15 years younger than all of the other consultants who were doing my job. They had these posh British accents. They came from a privileged place that I didn't. Now I recognize I carry some privilege with me, no matter what. But I also know that there was a lot of bias stacked against me.

So when I was getting some of the advice from them, I saw a marked difference in terms of how people responded to me versus how people responded to the exact same words coming out of their mouths versus mine. And I wrote about some of those experiences in the book as well. So when I was thinking about how do I help people, all of the content that I've been putting out, the stuff that Harper Collins saw that others were seeing was my mission. And this is the mission with the book. Is to create what I call the on ramp versus the stairs of negotiation. So the privileged class Say that one more time. 

Clare Kumar: That's so good. 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: It's the on ramp versus the stairs. So the privileged group, the able bodied can use the stairs, but you know, there's going to be some people left out who need the on ramp.

The on ramp, however, everybody can use. So when you give advice, when you speak to the lowest common denominator of power, that's advice that works for everybody, but the reverse is not true. So I started looking into why were things going so badly for me with some of these pieces of advice that I was given?

Why was I getting these different reactions? And I started looking at the research on bias and negotiation and age bias and gender bias and race and all of those types of things. So I started to try and find, you know, what are those ways that I know will work for me and that I know will also translate to those other folks who say I had a similar experience.

I didn't get, you know, received the way my peers did or I was shocked when, you know, so and so responded to this, to me like that. And so, and that's the other reason why. 

 

You know, I always advocate for cooperative negotiations for those collaborative styles of negotiation. Now it's not perfect 100 percent of the time and it may not be appropriate 100 percent of the time, but the vast majority of the times that we are advocating for ourselves, it is.

It's always more appropriate to be cooperative than it is to go in there, banging your fist on the table. Some of the negotiation tactics of yore, or of the, you know, the books that have been bestsellers 30 years ago, there's still some really great ones out there that I still leverage today and quote them in my own book.

But there's a few of them out there that. You know, when you puff out your chest and you do the stuff that you see in pop culture with the guys that who are speaking quickly and the slick back hair and all that kind of stuff, they get away with it one because it's fiction, but two because of privilege, not because it's actually a useful tactic, so they get away with it, despite the fact that it's a bad tactic because there's privileged attached to it and and we see that.

With politics and, and some of the, the biases and stuff today as well. So we can get away with things when you have enough power, when you have enough privilege, but it doesn't mean getting away with it is not a great strategy. And so if you don't have that power, if you don't have that leverage, then you really have to work on a more productive negotiation skillset.

Clare Kumar: Absolutely. I knew you would have an amazing answer to that question. So diving in a little bit to, um, looking at how to be more productive. One of the things in the community that I'm firmly part of, is the neurodivergent community. And one of the things that is a through line in that community is sensory sensitivity, as well as emotional reactiveness.

And so our responsiveness is super high. And If you're negotiating, and I'm drawing on personal experience here, if you're negotiating and you're not really well regulated, really calm, really grounded, going into the negotiation, there's a potential to lose your cool, speak quickly, use aggressive language, have bad facial expressions or non productive facial expressions.

I'm no poker face. At all, you will read what I'm feeling on my face. It's really, it's really tricky. So do you have thoughts around that particular piece and how that plays into your negotiation strategy so that you're presenting at your best? 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: So I do tell people, you know, whether I'm running workshops or I mentioned in the book, being reactive can be dangerous in negotiations.

Because you want to be thinking through things versus trying to do damage control afterwards. Now, that's not to say that emotions are a bad thing in negotiation, because I think that's, that's a misnomer. Emotions can be extremely valuable and productive in negotiations, but I would rather you be using them strategically.

Versus getting carried away by them. And so it is completely okay. And sometimes appropriate to share that you are frustrated. It is appropriate to share that you are hurt or passionate or whatever it is, but you want to make sure as much as you can to try to leverage it versus being consumed by it. And so, for example, you know, I used to work for a, I don't work for this company anymore.

Obviously I've been self employed for 10 years and. Thrilled about it. Um, but I used to work for a gentleman who was obviously a misogynist and, uh, he would always say things like, oh, I don't want you to get emotional. I said, well, thank you for recognizing my passion. It's my passion that gets stuff done around here.

So I reframed that emotion as a bad word into something that is actually productive because emotion is actually super productive. Emotion is what drives so much of what we do. Now, unfortunately, when you belong to a biased. group, you get mislabeled as if emotion is going to have a negative connotation.

The reality is when we look statistically at gender norms, men are far more emotional in the workplace than women are. And that emotion that they're showing is usually anger. And yet for some reason, it's socially acceptable for that. But the second a woman exhibits very similar, um, emotions or feelings, it is labeled completely differently.

So I want you to relabel it. So can you use it strategically? Can you be in charge of it versus being perceived as reactive? Because reacting is natural, but I want you to choose the reaction rather than getting consumed by it. And I know that is difficult to do. I know it's a really challenging thing to do, and there's coping mechanisms to do to deal with some of those things as well.

For some folks, it's as simple as counting to three before you say or do anything, can you get that habit for others? Like I have . When I, when I'm teaching and when I'm doing keynotes, I always have this little gift for the audience, these little pause cards, you know, for those who are listening, it's literally a piece of paper with a picture of a pause button on it, and I tell people to find their mental pause button.

So some of my students will tell me that they have these little cards all over their house. One of them was like, yeah, I even have one on the nightstand. And I was like, why the nightstand? He goes, well, now I don't get into arguments with my wife because I just need that visual reminder to pause and think first before I overreact.

Clare Kumar: I just show you? I'm not very under my desk. If you're watching YouTube, I have this on my wall, um, which is my own pause button that I made. I, I was never as savvy as to think to hand them out. It's brilliant. It's brilliant. 

Fotini Iconomopoulos:  But I'm not the only one that talks about it. It's just that critical that we, that we use it and that we leverage it.

So, You know, is it a visual? Is it a, you know, a monitor, mnemonic device of some kind? Is it just counting to three? Is it a meditative breath? Can you condition yourself to take more meditative breaths and insert that every time you want to open your mouth? And I guarantee you, you will have that much more leveraged reaction.

Cause I don't want to say controlled. Cause I don't want people to feel like it has to be an authentic, and I do want you to leverage your emotions. I just want you to do it in a way where you're in charge of them instead of them being in charge of you. 

Clare Kumar: Well, well said. And I love that you honor there is a place in the conversation for emotions.

What I've asked for in conversation is for people to help me understand how they're feeling, but not transfer the feeling. Right. Right. I don't want to be you're agitated. I don't want to become agitated. You're sad. I don't necessarily want to go exactly where you're going. And as a sensitive person, I find the emotions are very magnetic.

And so it's really something that I need to do is really do all those coping things for the nervous system.So you're noticing it first, the emotion, you name it, which helps calm you down. That's the first thing it's actually embedded in what you said, the first thing to do is name it and, and to speak it.

So what happens when you're speaking these words? Describe your emotions. What happens to the other person when they hear that in a way that's non charged, I would say. 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: Well, you're when you can label it and labeling is a tool that is recommended in the behavioral science world. When you can label it and say, look, I want this to come across as genuine.

I want this to come across as passionate as I feel about it versus allowing them to misperceive it in another way. I don't want to give them the space to misperceive it as angry. So you can take control of that label, that reframe, like I did with that passion versus you calling me emotional. I want you to know that I am passionate about this.

That's how important this is. So if you can re label that, you're now in charge of the perception of it versus allowing them to take it in a very different or negative connotation. And so you can also label it in the form of, I don't want this to be misperceived as this. So you are now saying there's a possibility you could go in this direction.

I'm already course correcting. So you don't go in that direction. And that is a genuine, cooperative approach to making sure that you're on the same page instead of allowing it. It's like calling out the elephant in the room before they have a chance to do anything with it before the elephant can steer them in the wrong direction.

Because if you've ever heard about trying to control elephants, it is hard to do. And so you want to get ahead of it as much as possible. But that what you call naming, we call labeling in the behavioral science world. And that is something that is a power move. You know, you're getting in charge of it versus allowing them to be in charge of it.

Clare Kumar: I remember a situation in the elevator where I caught someone flipping the direction of the elevator. And I, and that's, there's, I don't like to explain how because I don't want more people to do this because it basically dismisses all the people that are waiting for the elevator above you or below you.

It's like it's saying, I'm the most important person in this whole system. And so I called out a gentleman in the elevator and I said, that's really not a friendly move for the people that are waiting. And his response was, well, there's no need to be hysterical. And I was so calm and I said, Oh, this is not being hysterical.

This is just making an observation. And we had several floors to rise together. The elevator is a wonderful place to work on. And by the end of it, he said, thanks. When he left, so he had just a few seconds to reflect. And so one of the big observations in my journey, which is a constant learning journey, is that the energy that I'm putting out comes back to me.

Yes. So the more I can be speaking without charged emotions that put someone into defensive that invite their aggression. Like all of a sudden we're showing up to fight rather than explore. Really powerful. And the, but the, gendered language there with hysteria was just like, I know why I know where this is going.

It's labeling the woman as aggressive and out of control rather than clearly asserting herself and making a valid comment. 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: So there's two approaches that come to mind as you mentioned this, and I mean I love how you handled it. But for those people who are afraid of advocating for their themselves and worried that I can't handle it the same way in that situation.

One of the tools to relabel things and to. Um, and the way that we can almost make them backtrack to dig themselves a hole rather than making you the villain, let's say in that story, or potential villain in that story, is using questions. So questions are a fantastic way of managing the difference between being labeled assertive versus aggressive.

Right, making a statement could be perceived as aggressive. I'm not saying making a statement is wrong, I advocate for making statements. But If you ask a question in a clever way, you can get the same point across and remove any possibility that they could be calling you aggressive. So for example, if he says, well, you don't need to be hysterical about it.

My question would be, what about my tone or my statement was hysterical? And now he has to admit, well, there was nothing hysterical about it, or he has to be searching for something and maybe he'll come up with something. Maybe he won't. 99 percent of the time they can't come up with anything and they go, forget it.

You're just whatever, or like they just don't have any answer for it, but you've now put them in their place without aggressively putting them in their place or without pointing out they're being stupid or without any of the other things that you're tempted to do. So could you redirect your own energy into a question?

And that removes the risk of being labeled as anything else. So in those moments when someone is being aggressive with you or mislabeling you, there's your automatic response if you can train yourself into asking a question. What about that is this? What about that is happening this way? What makes you say that?

How was I this way and now all of a sudden those what or how questions specifically? Yes those are the ones yes, exactly because I don't know why but studies show us that people get very defensive when you ask a why question but you can switch any why question like why did you do that or why did you say that into a what caused you to do that, did you come to that conclusion? 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: And it’s perceived as less aggressive. Those are the types of little tiny things that you can do for yourself. You can still stand up for yourself. You can still put them in their place, but you're doing it in a way that they cannot call you aggressive because you're just asking a very curious question.

Your tone is critically important too. And like you said, you were super controlled. Right. So you're saying it very matter of fact, but your tone, if you're going, what made you do that now, all of a sudden comes off very differently than what made you say that.

Clare Kumar: And body posture, all of it, all of it, you know, how you're, how you're presenting. I think just remembering what you're putting out. Can bounce back.

Fotini Iconomopoulos: And you demonstrated something that I talk about from the stage a lot as well. So we've been given this really terrible advice over the years to in the business world. And you hear it in a lot of trainings where we're told to mirror the other party.

So if someone's being hostile, are you really supposed to mirror them back? If they're raising their voice, are you supposed to do the same thing? If they're puffing out their chest, are you really going to mirror them back? That is just a recipe for aggression and disaster. So what I try to tell people is it's basically what you said.

It's be the mirror. You want them to reflect if you want them to behave in an adult manner instead of a childlike one, if you want them to behave in a cooperative way instead of an aggressive one, that's the energy that you need to put out. If you want them to reduce their volume because they're yelling, then you're going to speak in a lower volume.

If you want them to speak in a more soothing and adult manner and a slower pace and, and take out some of the excess passion, then you're going to slow things down as well. And speaking. Speak in that tone. And that's what's going to, a natural human response evoke the same thing out of them. We mirror what's going on around us.

So if you can have just that moment of self control to press your pause button, instead of it getting caught up in doing what they're doing, you can redirect all of the energy in the room, not just the conversation, but the type of energy that's coming out in the way that you behave. And so maybe not everybody's as controlled as Clare is in that moment, but they could be, if they just take that breath first before they go into that mirroring reactive mode.

Clare Kumar: Yeah. And well, and this is an intellectual appeal to say, this is why it's worth building these practices so that when you need them in the moment, you can grab it and it's there for you rather than unraveling. I mean, yeah, I use the example of Will Smith and Chris Rock a lot of the time as emotional responsiveness.

You know, there was no pause. There was no pause in that moment. And, you know, this whole situation was emotionally charged with the probably biggest high in his life. He won an Oscar, oh my gosh, right? It's massive. And then playing defense and fully stepping into that in an aggressive way. It was really interesting to look at that situation.

This is so valuable. I listeners I hope you're really taking away things that you can practically apply in your own negotiations. I want to move a little bit more now towards when you're trying these things and you're finding that you're not being successful and recognizing that the toll on you might be more than you can take.

How do you, how do you know when it's the right time to declare your bottom line and leave? I mean, what I'm finding with most of my clients is the bottom line is kept really close to the chest, even when they're ready to go. They're not willing to say, this is my bottom line. I'm going to have to be forced to make a difficult decision.

And, but this is where I'm going. I'm not going to stay in this situation. I can't, I can't take this anymore. Hopefully it doesn't have to get there, but what do you have to say around the conversation about knowing what that point is and when you need to leave? 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: A lot of it is intuitive, but I tell people, you know, it's much easier to rest your head on your pillow at night and know you've done everything you can possibly do when you kind of have a mental checklist.

Did I ask a question? Did I put proposals on the table? Did I look for alternatives? If you can ask yourself those types of questions and it becomes much easier to go, Okay. This is the point at which I walk away. And so sometimes, you know, I find that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure always.

So can you plan for difficult conversations? Even if you think it's going to be the easiest conversation, can you plan just in case it gets difficult and planning could take as little as three minutes. In some cases, it doesn't have to be a massive, you know, hours long exercise. It's just going, if they say something I don't like, how am I going to handle it in that moment?

If they, you know, counter propose something that I don't. Like what's my response going to be? Can you plot out the words that are literally going to come out of your mouth in that moment so that you're not searching for them when the time comes? You can literally create muscle memory in your tongue so that you can not be stumbling over your words in that moment.

You're creating a memory for your subconscious to go, Oh, I'm familiar with these conditions. I don't need to freak out right now because I practiced it. You know, 20 minutes ago or whatever it was. And that just makes things a lot easier to handle in the moment. So you don't find yourself in dire straits so that that last moment is a more productive one.

Maybe that's the moment where you would have a question instead of a walkaway point. And if you've asked the appropriate questions, like for example, I always tell my students when I teach MBA classes, and it's usually MBA students I'm talking to about salary negotiations and new job offers and so on, you know, you've got to plan for the no.

So if you're asking for a title change or an increase in salary or whatever it is, what if they say no, what are you going to say in that moment. And if they say you need more experience. Then you're going to be ready with the question of what does experience look like to you? What specifically is going to indicate that I have the appropriate experience?

Is it a timeline? Is it a milestone? If they say we can't afford that right now, when will we know when we're able to afford it? What are the revenue milestones? What are the conditions in the organization that signal to us that we're going to be ready? So just having knowing some of those predictable responses from folks will give us the option to continue the conversation, or at least to solidify that I've gotten everything I can get out of them.

So when my students are ready with those types of questions and I, they know they're still getting vague answers. They go, well, I don't know. We'll know the experience when you see it. Well, what is it that you expect to see? When you can ask, when you have a couple questions ready, then all of a sudden they go, these people are being vague.

They're not answering my questions. They're still being elusive. That should be my big red flag. That's my moment to walk away. Right? So it's about setting up the conditions where you feel like you've exhausted everything that you can do, where you feel like you got some information, some value out of this conversation so that you feel comfortable.

And you're not going, I don't know what they would have said. You know, I didn't ask that question or I wasn't aware to ask that question. Think about what questions can you ask when push comes to shove? Just open your mouth and start saying what or how and see what comes out after it, because any of those what or how questions will get you a lot further.

And they're generic questions. It's not like you have to have a crystal ball and predict every single thing they say, but there are some things that are predictable. So when they say no, I'm going to know to ask what, how, what can we do to work around the no, what are the other conditions? Who else can we talk to?

Like, I don't know your circumstances, but I know those three questions are going to work in any circumstance. So it's about making sure that you have exhausted those resources so that you feel really comfortable to go. Okay. I feel my gut is now very comfortable going. It's time to walk away. 

Clare Kumar: I love that. It's planning mentality, this, which is maybe hard to do because do people think about conversations only when they're in the conversation? Is there a reluctance or a lack of insight that this is something to plan for? It's, I mean, who would think, how many people really think about planning their conversations?

Fotini Iconomopoulos: Until I talked to them very few. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. It's making me think of another speaker in our realm. Phil Jones, who's like the worst time to think about what to say is when you're saying it. Absolutely. 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: Yeah. 

Clare Kumar: Right. So this pre planning and anticipation is part of it. You know, I, I modeled that for my daughter and she's has her first internship position now.

And it's really amazing. She works for a company and they have, a fabulous lunch program when people come together and she was working with a company and the food did not show up. Well, it did show up, but instead of 30 people that came in one little bag and it came 15 minutes late. And so she had to have a conversation with the store.

And she said, mom, it's okay. I've got a script. And so, you know, when we're neurodivergent, In particular, and but I think it can apply to anyone in a stressful situation. There's a lot of anxiety around showing up. So planning through what am I going to say, actually speaking out. Do you, how much do you think actually saying the words out loud is really important rather than, you know, writing could be enough, or do you, uh, do you recommend role playing?

Fotini Iconomopoulos: It’s immensely important. Yeah. It's immensely important. In fact, when I'm, when I'm hired by companies, so part of my job is I'm hired for high stakes negotiations. So I sit in the war room with my clients and plot out some of these intense conversations they're going to have with the retail giants, the banks, and so on.

And a big chunk of the day that we spent together is role playing, is literally going, okay, you say you want this. Say it to me now and I'll respond as if I'm the buyer or whatever it is. And then they were like, deer in headlights moment, tongue twister and so on. Okay. When they say that now, what are you going to do?

And so they plot out, they think it through, they say it out loud, they decide how it sounds. They get the feedback and so on. But just that, that, that exercise of saying it out loud makes it such that your subconscious memory is going to remember it. So it's not going to become a jumbled mess. when it comes out.

And I always love having the follow up calls afterwards. And I go, how did the meeting go? Oh, Fortini it's exactly the way we rehearsed it. When they said this, we were ready with that. We knew exactly how to handle styles in that moment. We felt so confident. So there's this other element of just the familiarity creates a confidence in your brain so that you're not gumming up the works with all of these other thoughts that could be, you know, straying you from the appropriate conversation.

So it's a way to clear the clutter. It's a way to actually create that muscle memory. I cannot tell you this, just the 30 seconds it takes to say a phrase out loud will save you 10 minutes of heartache or maybe hours and hours or days of heartache because you, you, you won't be regretting how it came out of your mouth in the moment.

Clare Kumar: Yes. That's it, right? It's to be effective and also live with ourselves and be proud of how we've showed up. So there are so gems in here, so many gems in what you've shared already. Am I missing anything that you would love to leave with this audience who has potentially feeling generally socially anxious.

The other thing that's interesting, you might find interesting is sensitive people have actually more mirror neurons than the average brain. And so we have a natural compulsion to mirror someone. So we probably have to work a little harder at being able to step into this persona, if you will, or step into that elevated consciousness way of being that grounded.

Brené Brown, I just saw her speak at work human in April. She talked about the pause and she even has a tattoo. With stimulus: response. So to talk about the pause and she talked about moving into research around grounded confidence. And I think this is the place that, you know, if you can be in negotiations from that place of being emotionally well regulated and confidence through this practicing, I think that can come together.

What are we missing? Anything that you would love to impart to this audience? 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: Well, I mean, there's a couple of things. One is just kind of sum up some of the stuff we've talked about. All of the neurodivergent folks that I know, including family members, they take steps to prepare for, you know, taking a test and so on.

They know what their tools are going to be. So if you know that you're going to have a difficult conversation, get in touch with them. Just know what some of those tools are, the asking questions, the saying something out loud and so on. This is just another piece of the exact same level of preparation you would do for so many other circumstances.

So we're not trying to pile on more things for you to focus on. It's just a, it's an extension of what you already do, likely on a daily basis to prepare yourself, to remove the fear of the unknown and the fear of what could happen. That's all we're doing. But the other thing to think about is. And this goes back to the whole element of, you know, damaging relationships or fear of damaging relationships, and because you're more invested potentially than the average person in these relationships as well.

We don't, we have this need, this innate need to be liked and to not damage those relationships. That is our human nature. We, you know, traverse the earth when we were cave people in groups, we were never meant to be loners, but we make the false assumption that people like us because we give them what they want.

And that's not true. So behavioral science tells us that we, we can't buy likeability with our time, our money and our resources. Likeability actually comes from different places. So likeability generally comes from three things. It comes from having something in common. And it could be something really silly.

It could be you love pink. Me too. I always show up at bright colors. It could be something that, that ridiculous and small and teeny tiny. It's removing that fear of the unknown. So find that little something in common. It's fine. It's a paying genuine compliments. I really love your glasses. If I wore glasses, I would do bright colors too.

It's something teeny tiny again, that makes them go, Oh, they're seeing me. They're acknowledging me because everybody wants to be acknowledged in some way. And so when you can find genuine compliments, again, it's authentic. I'm not telling you to start being a smarmy salesperson. Who's trying to make stuff up.

You can find anything. And people are like, what have you have nothing to compliment them on? You can say, wow, your frames are so perfectly aligned in your background. How do you do that with a level or by eye? Like who can find. Anything. But the last thing that, that the last reason why we like people is we like people who are cooperative.

So we want to work with people who are trying to be cooperative. We try to work against people who are competitive. So if you, if you are going in there, puffing out your chest and so on, people are going to find an excuse to not deal with you. And so if you have these extra neurons of, of elevating empathy, you can use this as your superpower.

You can use this ability to now go, I can create likeability in a way that's not going to cost me the currency of time, energy, or money. It's going to cost me in the things that I already like doing is empathizing with people. It's complimenting people. It's asking questions instead of making demands of people.

Those are your superpowers that you can leverage to make people want to work with you versus being worried that you're going to damage relationships. 

Clare Kumar: Brilliant. Brilliant. I love that. There's three points and I love how it again came back to questioning. I actually, so training as an executive coach, questioning and staying in that modality of being curious is something that has infused my life, but I don't think I'd thought of it as the closing point, of negotiation is to keep going with questions.

I think of David Bowie and MTV. I don't know if you're familiar with this interview. 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: I think I am. Yeah. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. When he was challenging, really challenging in a really effective way. Why MTV, are you not playing black artists in the lineup. And he didn't say why he, you know, he came at it and, and he used, he used questioning and, pauses and you could see it was inviting reflection.

And he stayed, he stayed, you know, an interesting conversation to witness. And you just, you just couldn't help but look at MTV and go, what are you guys doing? You know, it was, it was so powerful, but this, this questioning I've turned into a model. I call it the ask model to keep questioning this, this element of curiosity.

So at the forefront of what we do, and I think it relates to what you were saying, you know, if we're, if we're noticing how we want to show up, ask stands for anticipate. So that means the planning piece anticipate what the challenge is going to be source or suggest solutions. So, okay, what else do I need to keep me on this path?

And then learn in the process, learn, commit to knowing more about yourself or about the others that you're working with. And just keep asking, just keep asking, just keep going through that loop and ask, ask for what you need, ask for what you need to know all of that. So much goodness in there.

And what I'm inviting listeners to do is really take these gems that Fotini has shared here and think about that next challenge that you're anticipating. There's going to be challenges that come up regardless, but think about that next one and think about what you need. To be prepared for that conversation, both for your sensory and emotional needs, but also anticipating the no, I think that was, um, a super powerful one to don't be afraid of thinking about it and practice verbalizing it.

Fotini Iconomopoulos: Things are not going to be perfect and that's okay. Cause you'll be prepared for those moments that aren't so perfect. That's the whole purpose of having a negotiation. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah, and maybe our conscientiousness to drives us to not want to, you know, fear of rejection is also part, especially with people with ADHD, there's a rejection sensitivity.

So I don't want to have the conversation because it's not going to go well. So that fear of damaging relationships, but also fear of being unliked, you know, not, you know, that rejection piece. Thanks so much. I'm going to encourage everyone here to pick up a copy of Say Less, Get More. We actually connected again because you had a story and maybe we'll finish just with the story.

Your own story. You open with the story and you've had a story recently in your own life, which comes back to you having to self advocate. And I wonder if you might want to close with just a little sharing of what that was. Thanks. 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: Yeah. So I was sharing, I was turning everything into content in my life because I was like, well, I got to make the most of this moment.

And I have a severe nut allergy and it has landed me in the hospital more times than I'd like to admit, even though I'm generally a pretty careful person, I've had this all my life. So I carry EpiPens around. And I made a mistake, at a conference right at the end, thankfully at the end of the day, not in the middle of the day.

And I had to drive myself to the hospital. But the problem is I was in, I was in my hometown. So the hospital there is. pretty awful. The people are lovely, but they have 13 hour wait times in the ER. If that gives you an indication of what the conditions are like out there. Now with a nut allergy, you are put to the top of the priority list along with heart attacks and gunshots and things like that.

But even when you're top of the list, when there's literally no one there and there's no physical bed to treat you, you're in trouble. And I had now 25 minutes since my last EpiPen and I'm at the reception of the emergency room and I need to get care. So I needed to get someone's attention. I need, and you can't go in there banging your fists on the table.

And at the same time, I have got so much adrenaline coursing through my veins because I've stabbed myself with adrenaline. And so I needed to maintain my control, even though my hands are literally shaking. And I went up to somebody and I, there, I said who is on duty at the thing? I need some help because I, you know, I need a dose of Epi and so on.

And it's been 25 minutes since my last dose. So I asked, I started with this question and of course I needed to follow up with what the purpose of this is. Oh, she's not there at the desk. Let me go get her. So now I get to this person and I finally get to this person and she's like, look, we need to get you a bed, but we don't have one.

Let me see what I can do to speed this up. And I just kept asking questions like, okay, well, how severe is it if I can't breathe. How severe is it? If this, so just pointing her in these directions versus going, I can't breathe and you need to do something about it, those are the types of things where you get her wheels turning.

And now she feels accountable because she needs to answer my question as opposed to me telling her something. And so I ended up getting care as quickly as was humanly possible. I finally got behind the trauma curtain and even the nurse was like, wow, you got here, but you just arrived at what time you got here really quickly.

Like she was, she was amazed. I jumped through as many hoops as I did as quickly as I could. And that meant a world of difference in terms of managing my reaction. It would have meant spending like if I had, you know, if it took an extra 20 minutes, I would have ended up spending the night in the hospital or who knows what else the reaction would have been much more severe versus catching it before it escalated.

When I mentioned it in my Instagram stories and stuff, and I talked about it and said, here's the tools that I use. I asked questions, I did this and so on.My readers were reminding me, oh, this is like the story you told in the book. Cause I start. My whole book, when I had this aha moment many years ago saying, Oh, in Canada, where I live, I don't have to worry about paying for my healthcare, but I'm still negotiating.

It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with my stress level and my quality of life. And so we have these opportunities around us every day. The big question is what skills are using to advocate for yourself and improve your quality of life versus how I just sat there and waited for someone to call me up or waited for someone to show up at the window.

I would have been in a lot more trouble and I had, I banged my fists on the table. No one would have been jumping to help me. They would have just been taking their time going. You can wait until we're done here. Um, so it's about using that likeability. It's using those cooperative tactics that really did, I think, saved my life in some of those cases.

Clare Kumar: So there you go, listeners, this is life or death skill, and hopefully you're not going to be in a situation like that, but you never know when you're going to need these skills. So yeah, thank you for sharing that story. My sister has a similar allergy and has been hospitalized many times and I know the consequences of not catching it.

So I am amazed at your brilliance and ability with all of that adrenaline and to, to put all of these things into place and that you're here to tell more stories. The world needs more of Fotini Iconomopoulis. 

Fotini Iconomopoulos: Well, that is a lovely compliment, but I will, you know, reaffirm practice makes progress. This is something that I've been training for 365 days.

So even under the craziest of conditions, you still carry a lot of that with you. So the more we all practice these types of skills, the better you are when the conditions are tougher. 

Clare Kumar: That's exactly right. Thank you so much, Fotini. Everybody tune in, share this episode with someone. Maybe you're in negotiations with someone because it's going to help both sides of this conversation to have all of these skills.

And don't be afraid of that next difficult conversation where you can say less and get more.