Episode 49: The Language of Neurodiversity - with Pasha Marlowe

 

Pasha Marlowe: I was trained as a therapist. So I was trained in the pathology paradigm where I, no matter what, who presented or how many people, for example, a couple or a family presented, I had to determine one person to be, I'll put it in quotes, disordered.

And I had to give them a diagnosis and a certain diagnosis would allow them to have a certain amount of sessions and then we perhaps get coverage by insurance, even if let's say it was grief recovery or traumatic like a traumatic stress, which I don't even love to put the D at the end of that. Why is it disordered that we have a valid human experience from actual trauma?

That makes sense. But I don't, why is it a disorder? 

Clare Kumar: It's actually quite ordered. 

Pasha Marlowe: It is ordered and it's valid and it makes sense.

Clare Kumar: You're listening to episode 49 of the Happy Space Podcast. And today we're looking at how we speak about neurodiversity and the evolution of language with neuroinclusion expert, Pasha Marlowe. 

Clare Kumar: If you've been following the podcast, you'll already know that I think it's important to get language right, to respect those with whom we are in conversation or speaking about, but sometimes it can be tricky. There's a lot to get right and language keeps evolving. I'm exploring that today with my guest and neuroinclusion expert, Pasha Marlowe.

Today Pasha is a speaker and consultant helping organizations address neuroinclusion and to cultivate, in her words, neurobelonging. Pasha has been a family and marriage therapist for over 30 years and has 54 years of lived experience as a queer, autistic, ADHDer, raising three neurodivergent children, and coming, as you might expect, from neurodivergent parents. 

Pasha is also the host of the Neuro Queering podcast. More on that later. Pasha is the author of My Next Husband Will Be a Lesbian and really an articulate speaker on this topic. We explore language around neurodiversity and the use of the term disorder and gender and impaired. We talk about why it's important to invite people to refer to themselves as they wish.

Pasha shares more about the term neuroqueering and I ask Pasha for her perspective on patients. Do we have what we need to be truly inclusive? Find out in this conversation with Pasha Marlowe. 

Clare Kumar: Pasha Marlowe, welcome to the Happy Space Podcast. 

Pasha Marlowe: Thank you for having me, Clare. 

Clare Kumar: I am so excited to speak with you. We got connected to, through one of my former guests, Lisa Whited, and I had the pleasure of talking with her this morning. So your ears might've been burning. You spoke together at an inclusion conference.

Pasha Marlowe: Yes.

Clare Kumar: I believe. Yeah. 

Pasha Marlowe: Yes. Yes. We spoke about disability inclusion together. It was great. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. And she was raving about you and we got connected and I immediately have to say I fell in love with the way you are so clear in your message. And I wanted to bring your voice to those who are interested in this conversation, the intersection of productivity and inclusivity, especially about language and identity and how that fosters the longing. 

It's been interesting as I've stepped into my own diagnosis of autism, I've been dealing with the language of neurodiversity and neurodivergency for a few years now. And maybe I'll start with the fact that I feel like I've had to kind of elbow my way into the conversation or on neurodiversity and neurodivergency because as a highly sensitive person, a trait that I identified with for almost 10 years, it doesn't show up in a lot of the conversations around neurodivergency. So I was like, well, wait a second.

If I understand the meaning of the word. It's logical that it, to me that it fits there, but I want to start with, with this concept of neurodiversity, neurodivergency and your take on language and what these terms mean and why it's important to honor what they mean.

Pasha Marlowe: Yes. Thank you. Neurodiversity is diversity of all nervous systems, not just minds and brains, because neuro doesn't mean brain, neuro means nervous system, and some of us think differently, but some of us also move differently, act differently, love differently, learn differently. So I think it's quite expansive.

So that's neurodiversity. We're all neurodiverse, so there's no neurodiverse individuals. We are all as a human species, neurodiverse 'cause you need at least two to be diverse. Then there's neurodivergent and that is an identity, not a diagnosis, but an identity used by anyone who diverges from neuronormativity, not normal 'cause there is no normal. 

And normal is a social construct, but diverges from neuronormativity or society's idea of what is the normal, right, or ideal way to, again, not just think, but learn and act and move. And I include love. 

And so we have this neurodivergent umbrella, which for a lot of people means ADHD, autism, dyslexia, but it's hundreds including, I would say, those who identify with HSP those who have innate neurodivergence or acquired neurodivergence, let's say a traumatic brain injury or epilepsy. And then there's folks who fall under the neurodivergent umbrella for some, like Down syndrome. But, if you talk to somebody, with down syndrome, they might want to say, no, I identify as chromosomal diversity, not neurodiversity.

So all that to say, it's really up to the individual person to decide how they identify and I don't ever argue with somebody's own identity. If you identify as HSP, that's how you identify. I love to, you know, queer these conversations and remain curious and say, oh, it's interesting. Some people believe that HSP is an ableist term for autism.

There's a lot of overlap. Let's talk about it. But with respect and compassion, always valuing agency and autonomy for the person to determine on their own, for all the reasons, how they wish to identify. And the only caveat to all this, I will say, is I do believe that experts and teachers and therapists in the field of neurodiversity, I, I do believe we need to get some things right.

Like, not saying neurodiverse individuals, but in terms of how people identify, such as neurospicy, that's completely up to yo the individual. And I know you and I have talked about that and, and your definition or description made so much sense because through your unique lived experience and through your frame of rest reference, neurospicy felt right.

And it wasn't an avoidance of using neurodivergence. It was for a lot of other personal reasons, which I thought was just such a beautiful example of we have to remain curious and ask people and really explore it from that lens of curiosity and agency. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. So just to bring listeners up to speed on our conversation, we were talking about the term neurospicy.

I write for Glassdoor quite frequently, which is an online platform that is largely anonymous, but not always. And I write there quite openly as who I am. And I was referring to neurodivergency and I put neuroatypical, neuro spicy, and I had a lot of pushback from some of the writers there saying, If you want me to take you seriously, you'll use the word neurodivergent, not neurospicy.

It's, somebody called it dogger, doggo pupper language. And I was, I don't even know what that means, but I'm assuming it's not to be taken seriously. And so it was interesting because when I use the multiple terms for it, it's because I recognize that some people want, don't want to be seen as divergent, diverging from normal. So I want to come back to normativity and how, and how you chose that word rather than normal. So I want to park that question. 

Pasha Marlowe: Okay. 

Clare Kumar: But to come back to spicy, just for listeners who are curious why I've had an affinity for spicy, my heritage is part Indian and the food, the language, the color, the heat, everything there, I've, I've described India as spicy in many ways.

And I nearly named my daughter Masala, which is spice essentially in Hindi. And so I thought, oh, neurospicy. I kind of like it because there's a sense of. For me, exotic beauty to spice and resonance and variety and color and flavor. And I thought that that word felt really fun for me to lighten it and move it away from disorder.

Which is one thing I do want to do is I want to invite people to think of the different ways of being as just different ways of being, and there's not one that's better than another, they are different and they each have their challenges and strengths and and I just wanted an openness around thinking about it.

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah, and I do want to say that the person who coined the phrase neurodivergent Kassiane Asasumasu, I really hope I'm pronouncing their last name correctly, back in 1999 biracial multi neurodivergent person, created the word. to diverge from the disordered narrative, to offer people an empowered word where they could stand strong in their difference and not feel disordered or othered or all the other terms we use.

And so it does offer that, neurodivergent does offer that, and some people also, or instead of want to use, other terms, it's almost like with the non apparent and invisible disability language, I use non apparent, because most of the people I interact with in the disabled community are choosing to use non apparent.

Their, their reasons are hidden implies that we're hiding something that we're hiding a disability and invisible is we're already invisible in some ways as disabled people. And so we don't want to perpetuate that. Experience and stereotype. However, I was just talking to a brilliant researcher yesterday who's studying for herself, invisible disability.

And I asked, I wonder, I'm just curious why you use that term. And, and her answer was her brain is right now focusing on the action of including people with disabilities. And for her, that's her action and intention and impact. And that's the wording that makes sense to her. And, and so it was just this really great interaction of, you know, she's aware of all the terms out there, but that's the one that resonated with her.

And she's doing such good advocacy work, you know, to help disabled people. That it's just like, It's who am I to argue with that? Like, just this for the same reason we say who determined disorder in the first place, who determined what is mentally ill, who determined what is at a typical or abnormal, like we, if we're fighting against that, I don't believe we can also fight against people for their choice of identifying how they wish.

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. So I love that you brought that example up because one of my questions that I wanted to bring you today was, we have other examples and I want to talk through other examples of language choice, which is evolving and in a way to show more respect to the community using it and their preferences, which, yes.

That's my cat. Because I closed the door and so there was a thud on the other side of the door. 

Pasha Marlowe: I have never had a conversation or podcast episode with a neurodivergent person where an animal didn't either come in the room or come into the conversation. So this is just the way we roll. And I'm glad you brought that up because there are terms.

That feel and seem very offensive. For some neurodiverse individual feels offensive because for example, in the black community there, they don't want somebody to say you're a diverse hire. You're a diverse person. Like that's just not accurate. And it's offensive and it shows a lot, it shows ignorance.

And then, for example, the R word that I don't even like to say that some people use for somebody with intellectual disabilities, that is offensive. We've evolved from that. We've evolved and created more gender affirming language for example. There's so many ways that we've, that we have evolved. And I think there are.

I think there are words that, that we, that I personally feel like we should adopt and words that we should let go of. And, and some hold more emotion than others. 

For example, in the disability community in general, I'll just speak in generally and for myself I don't prefer handicap or impaired rather than say a handicapped bathroom or a handicapped parking spot, say an accessible bathroom, an accessible parking spot, because who are we to say if that person is handicapped or impaired or sees themselves as, as having an impairment or a challenge, just like with mental illness or mental health struggles or mental health challenges, that's up to the individual to determine if they feel like it is an illness or a challenge or a struggle, right? 

So anybody who has PTSD or bipolar or schizophrenia, we can't assume that this is a disordered or a problem or a challenge. We can't determine that. The person whose life experience that is can determine that. 

Clare Kumar: And do you have particular language to talk about mental health then that doesn't label it?

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah, I like saying mental health rather than mental illness, for example. Or a mental health experience. Or if we're already in the language and in the conversation talking about challenges, I might say mental health challenges. But I feel like experience kind of opens up the door to allow the other person to share their, their experience.

Some people have diagnoses and some don't. Some people are formally diagnosed, self diagnosed, and, and there's a lot of privilege that intersects diagnoses and disclosure. So I don't lean into, you know, formal diagnoses much, but I was trained as a therapist. So I was trained in the pathology paradigm where I, no matter what, who presented or how many people, for example, a couple or a family presented, I had to determine one person to be, I'll put it in quotes, disordered.

And I had to give them a diagnosis and a certain diagnosis would allow them to have a certain amount of sessions and then we perhaps get coverage by insurance, even if let's say it was grief recovery or traumatic like a traumatic stress, which I don't even love to put the D at the end of that. Why is it disordered that we have a valid human experience from actual trauma?

That makes sense. But I don't, why is it a disorder? 

Clare Kumar: It's actually quite ordered. 

Pasha Marlowe: It is ordered and it's valid and it makes sense. But we stick the D in the DSM and as therapists and doctors, we stick the D at the end. Because that's frankly the way it is right now, but it also sometimes affords people the ability to get services or medication.

But I'm hoping in the future that we, that we ease away from the disordered language of it all and just have it in experiences like the traumatic stress. That's true. You know? Yeah. Instead of grief disorder, just grief recovery, for example.  

Clare Kumar: Yeah, because it's really hooking into that medical model, which perpetuates leaders and saying, we have a process for that.

You go to your doctor, you submit your diagnosis, and then you get help. If, if you don't have that for whatever reason, too bad for you. 

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah. And, and there's a lot of privilege in that, right. Being able to access care, being able to afford care being apparent enough, for example, in our disabilities for people to believe that we need that we need support or care.

Clare Kumar: So I'm dealing with a share a personal situation I'm dealing with right now. I have cracked a tooth and unfortunately that tooth requires removal and replacement. I will try to use very gentle language for those who don't want to think deeply about this because I sure don't want to think deeply about this.

And in learning about what's required it, it seems like it's going to be challenging for me on a sensory level, the treatment. 

So in discussion with my dentist specialist, we've both agreed that for both of us, it's probably better for me to have general anesthetic. In the health coverage, I am trying, it's been two months now, I've been trying to get an answer from the insurance company about coverage of the general anesthetic.

Just so you know, it's 2,000 just to have the general anesthetic. In Canada, where we pride ourselves on our healthcare for which dental is really not included. So, the whole bill is going to be about 10,000, of which 2,000 is what I call a humane treatment. And so I'm, I have a line of inquiry now with the insurance company to figure out whether they're going to cover the kind of pain, pain relief that I, that I need to avoid trauma.

Body trauma going forward, right? 

Pasha Marlowe: Yes. 

Clare Kumar: And I really want to pull out, if I have to, the autism diagnosis to support the degree of sensory stimulation that I will feel in the trauma and all of it. I don't know if it's going to go anywhere. They're, they have a six week backlog right now, and they're operating by snail mail.

And so I am super puzzled at how they actually move anything forward. And I basically said the system feels broken and I feel like the only one who cares about the outcome. I would say my healthcare professional in this is amazing and very compassionate and was recommended to me because my dentist knows that I'm very sensitive.

Yes. And so he said, you can't, no, don't see the surgeon in our, it won't be a good fit. And he's recommended me to this individual, but still trying to advocate through a system or humane treatment around sensory issues is really interesting. 

Pasha Marlowe: Such a good point too. I've never, I've been a therapist for 30 years and specifically in the last five, solely working for people who identify as neurodivergent individuals and couples.

And I've yet to meet a neurodivergent person who doesn't have significant medical trauma, a significant amount of sensory overload and fears with medical issues. There's also, there's also a lot of overlap and I talk about this in, in my neuroqueering work, but there's a lot of overlap neurodivergence plus community.

And the reason why I bring it up is because something like medical trauma or sensory issues, like imagine you're a trans person who's having a gender affirming surgery that requires, let's say binders. When that, that's a sensory issue. That's going to be a sensory issue. It's going to be a trauma issue.

It's going to be an affirming issue. It's going to be a disability issue and, and to find practitioners who can honor all those intersecting identities and needs. It is a challenge. And so I feel like it's something that we, as a community of neurodivergent people, if we can even imagine that to be a community, because I think it's most of the world it's like an enormous community of neurodivergent people.

I have reasons for thinking that. You know, We just need to keep it in the conversation because then perhaps insurance companies and doctors and practitioners will start to honor it and validate it more. Yeah. I hope. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah, absolutely. When I went to see the dentist I started talking about high sensitivity because that's the language I had available to me it's like, have you had high, highly sensitive patients? 

Do you know how to accommodate them and, and make them feel more comfortable? Is this something even on your radar? Right. It's interesting entering into the diagnosis of autism. I feel like now I have a language where people will go.

 Oh, I have some preconceived understanding of what that is now, which I don't know if it's going to be accurate or not now that I have a much fuller understanding as well.

So it's interesting, the labels. This is what we're talking about labels and identity and are they helpful? Are they hurting us? What's happening? Okay. So hang on. Cause I'm going to, I'm going to be piling on questions here. If I don't be careful, I'm going to forget to go back. So you said neuroqueering.

I want to come back to that, but I want to go back to neuronormativity versus just the word normal. Okay. Cool. And can you unpack that choice for me so that I understand the choice? 

Pasha Marlowe: Yes. My earbud just fell out. Apologies for any weird sound. Pausing in case you need to edit. Okie dokie. There is no normal.

There is no one right way to be or think or act or move or feel or love. And so normal is a social construct. And we're not diverging from normal because normal doesn't exist. But we are diverging from society's idea of what is normal, we're diverging from neurotypical standards. And from there we could branch off into probably capitalistic, you know, patriarchal concepts as well as colonialism and white supremacy and other things. 

But there's many, many reasons why the world is the way it is that do not serve us well. And they're, and they're not, the rules aren't made for, for people who diverge from all of that. So it's diverging from these societal norms, not diverging from an actual normal.

Does that make sense? 

Clare Kumar: It does. And it also having lived in Japan for three years, having spent time in India and England and Montreal, I fully believe that you're, you're totally right, the social construct evolves. And so I'm thinking, for example, of how a society deals with crowds and having a lot of people to navigate.

And in Japan, one of the evolutionary ways of being is to avoid eye contact and thereby preserve personal space. So you're, you navigate through and you're just not seeing people, you know, directly. When I was in Hong Kong and Shanghai, it was more like, oh, you see people and you elbow. To get your, your space in a Shanghai restaurant, you put your hand on the chair of the person sitting at the restaurant to indicate you want that chair afterwards.

So when different cultures, different ways of behaving evolve, even in what would be both more pluralistic societies there, the evolution is different. So what would be normal in one society would be, excuse me why is your hand on my chair? Like, well, I don't understand this pressure. So wildly different.

And I think, I don't think that's perhaps commonly understood in the term neurodivergence. I, and when I look up and I'm not sure how you say I thought it was Cassian or Cassini. 

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah, I thought it was Cassane. 

Clare Kumar: Cassane. Perfect. So if, if, that person's body of work. I've looked for more writing from this individual to elaborate on this, and I haven't been able to find much to bring more a fuller intention around the word neurodivergent.

I find that person's name, but that's it. And so I think that could be helpful is some some work on talking about divergency from what. And just as you have, just as you have right now. 

Pasha Marlowe: Yes. And if I could offer just a couple of resources, which of course I'm sure we'll share in the transcript and beyond.

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah. Because there isn't a lot by Kasane on the internet, although there are a few really amazing quotes, but you're right. There isn't a lot probably because it was 1999 when the work was first established and there's just maybe less available on the internet and maybe they don't like to be on the internet, but 

Clare Kumar: That's what I was, that was, I can't find anything. Well, that's probably intentional. 

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah and smart, really, you know, depending on the day. So I really enjoy Dr. Nick Walker's work. Nick Walker. Wrote Neuroqueer Heresies and she does a brilliant job of identifying and defining all of these nuances. It's very affirming and it's clear.

I also really like Sonny Jane Wise's work. They just wrote a book called We Are All Neurodiverse and that too breaks down a lot of these definitions and, and Sonny goes really in a beautiful way. deep into the intersectionality, the justice movements like the, the, the real impact of this work. So that's a, that's a, those two are my favorites at the moment.

Clare Kumar: Yeah. Thank you for that. We will definitely put the links in the show notes for listeners. Yeah, because I think it's important to have that fuller understanding, otherwise we have these reactions. Tell me about the term neurodistinct and what you feel about that. 

Pasha Marlowe: Sorry, I didn't mean to laugh. So, okay, so neurodistinct is like, we're all different, which is the same to me as saying neurodiversity. It's like there's no, there's, it doesn't add anything. For me, this is my opinion, that it doesn't add anything. Yes, neurodistinct for me does not add anything to the conversation that neurodiversity, neurodiverse, neurodivergent don't already bring.

I will say that and this is coming recently from from black autistic or black and, and, or black disabled creators that have been that I've been following or reading about that because neuronormativity is tied into neurotypicality, which is tied into white supremacy, they don't like to use the term neurodivergent.

I'm not saying they as like a whole, I'm just saying these particular creators that I've listened to they prefer neuroexpansive. And so. Different terms are going to resonate for different people and to your point about culture, depending on the language of their culture, the, their life experience, their intersectionality, their personal preferences.

And so I think neurodivergent works well, certainly for me and for a lot of people. But I can also understand why, as we. So I think as we explore and expand our awareness, frankly, of different life experience, lived experiences and cultures that, that other words will arise. I coined a term called neurobelonging and people are like, well, we already have the word belonging.

Why, why bother put neuro in front of it? And I was like, I feel like as a neurodivergent person, there's this unique experience, especially right now, the world. Not, not accepting us in our authentic self. They say, bring your authentic self to work. Everybody belongs here, but not that mental health part.

Not that autistic part. Right, right. Like don't actually bring all of yourself. So then there's this sense of, okay, well, I do still want to feel belonging inside myself. You know, like Brené Brown says, you don't want to, you know, fitting in is to see what everybody else does. wants you to do or see or act or what, that fitting in is about other people accepting you and belonging is about you bringing your authentic self.

So I think, okay, if we're going to belong anywhere, we can't betray ourselves. We have to stay true to ourselves. We have to stay close to our values and our integrity. And as a neurodivergent person, we are also going to be aware that there are lots of people who will reject our identity, not understand it, misinterpret it.

And we still can feel a sense of belonging or neurobelonging inside ourselves, wherever we go. If we're clear with ourselves as to our, our identity with agency and autonomy, how we identify and, and, and our own values, you know? 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. 

Pasha Marlowe: And so anyhow, I've been playing around with that as a term specifically for the neurodivergent community.

Clare Kumar: It struck me as of course it should exist that term. I'm like, yeah, how come I haven't seen this everywhere? It made sense to me. Just as a note in my thinking too, I've expanded the concept of psychological safety that we talk about. We have physiological safety. We need the air clear and the surface is wiped.

And so we've got that down. We got psychological safety. We have an understanding to feel safe enough to speak up, but I've come up with the term neurological safety. We need to have our nervous systems be able to relax in the world and be not stressed, right? And so I think there is an evolution to your point of language and neurobelonging comes from neurological safety to some extent that all of those safeties are in place and then I can fully exhale and actually show up 

Pasha Marlowe: Yes, and it's interesting because a lot of people are you know, We already talk about this in DEI or DEIA or DEIB, these terms, these experiences, but I was just presenting to a global HR summit just before I came on here.

And there are 4,000 people in my session. And I, and the most common, the most common comment I got was. Thank you for specifying the neurodivergent and disabled experience, even though of course, we're always talking about diversity and equity and inclusion and belonging. It really spoke to me. And I finally felt seen and heard in my unique experience as a neurodivergent person and also with sensory issues.

And as you're talking about that sometimes doesn't feel like the, the conversation is deep enough. And personal enough to, to really feel that, that sense of we're understood and seen, and, and I assume there's lots of people from different, different cultures that would feel exactly the same way. 

Like just saying we support D E I B or D E I A and all of it doesn't actually mean the person feels support unseen, just like if I said right now, this is a safe space for you to share. That's my intention that I'm a safe person and this is a safe space, but I can't guarantee that you might not feel safe. There might be trauma I don't understand, or you might have just experience grief that I don't know about, or there might be something about the way I speak or act that that might make you feel unsafe.

So I can't guarantee safety. So I, I think about how we shouldn't make assumptions as much as we often do. I shouldn't make assumptions. 

Clare Kumar: Assumptions are part of how we operate. It's a shortcut to, you know, to, to moving forward with some kind of pace. But what questions can we ask and, and how do we invite that reflection?

And when I was just talking with Lisa, who I mentioned at the top of our discussion, I said, what if we started meetings by saying, you know, my intent here is to create. A dialogue and conversation that displays my respect for you. If I say anything that feels otherwise, could you please let me know so I can better understand how I can demonstrate my respect.

And so it's, I think if we have that kind of going in position to not assume that we've figured out what safety is. Right. And that it's evolving and that people might show up with different perspectives, but to be open to saying, Oh my gosh, that made me uncomfortable. And here's why, and to invite that dialogue.

I think that's true safety is the ability to have the conversations, rather than assuming that we've ticked the box because we've said that we just, I just did my DEI training. Thanks. I'm good. 

Pasha Marlowe:  Right. Yes. And in the world of psychological safety, it's really only when the most vulnerable, the most underrepresented, those with the most marginalized identities feel.

And I think about it in the sense of inclusive design versus universal design, really meeting the specific needs of people, kind of solving for one and serving many and making these. Like you're saying, if you start every meeting that way, then you don't need to go around the room, for example, checking in to see how everybody's doing, nor do you need to have anybody, disclose anything they're not comfortable with, or put in the chat something they're not comfortable with.

You're offering this space, assuming that there are people with emotional support needs or potentially physical support needs and beyond. And I think that's a direction we should all go where we're assuming there are access and support needs and that's, that's inclusive design. So we don't have to wait for there to be a problem before we offer a solution.

Clare Kumar: That's exactly right. It's the, it's the physical design. It's the cultural design. It's that space of invitation. And safety to speak up. I think that are that combined to create that space that we're going to find more people are speaking up for their needs then, or speaking up for somebody else who you know what their needs are. Oh so and so’s coming we need to make sure their needs are met. How lovely would that be. 

Pasha Marlowe: Yes, that's so beautiful because a lot of people choose not to be on camera. Let's say there's a remote call. A lot of people choose not to be on camera. And if you don't take the time to look at who the participants are, you might not have say hello to them, or you might not think to offer, for example, a vis, a visual description of, of who's speaking or offer your pronouns.

If you make assumptions as to who's in the room, oh, they know me, you know, oh, they don't have any needs. Then you're really missing an opportunity to meet everybody's needs, but really specifically those that, that aren't able or, or for whatever reason, aren't speaking up or, or able to speak up.

Clare Kumar: Yeah, in my perception, it needs this mindset shift to opening to have this kind of thinking. And then practically, it needs patience to be able to stand in that and create that opportunity for people to find their voice for people to recognize, oh, yes, we're going to get the captions on, or we're going to add those descriptions, there's a slowing down required here.

That I think it's a challenge for a lot of organizations and people, type A people in particular. I would throw myself into that bucket. I remember going to a meeting years ago for some sales training and it was observing the way that the trainer was actually, it until I understood why I was impatient and I was like, why are we not getting to the point?

Then I understood why he was doing what he was doing. And I was like, oh, there was a lot of beauty in that. I wonder what's your sense in this work of the appetite for the patience required to cultivate this space. 

Pasha Marlowe: There is much patience needed. I need to flag put a pin in patience just for a second, because one of the things you just said reminded me of a question that I get often at the end of my presentations, where, for example, the president of a university will say, this is great.

I love this idea of neuroinclusion. I love the idea of people having the agency autonomy to identify how they wish and, and speak as they wish and act as they wish. He's like, but what about the fact that there's also rules and restrictions and, and parameters that we want students to follow.

And I mentioned one of the things you just did, which is, it's good to understand the why. Like, let's close the loop. And this is especially important, I think for autistic people, but a lot of people who just need to like, I don't want to just follow a rule because it's a rule. Right. And we can talk about PDA too, but I want to understand why, why do you want me to go to chapel service on Sunday?

Clare Kumar: Isn’t that Tracy Chapman? Give me a reason. 

Pasha Marlowe: Give me a reason. Yes. And so when, when I coming back to patients, I didn't forget when I, in my presentations, I always have. I have closed captions running live, and if possible, I have a interpreter. Right? Which, by the way, is not just for people in the audience who identify as deaf, but also for people in the audience who have acquired some hearing difficulties.

And then there's also people in the audience who surprise themselves as, I was so much more engaged because I was watching the interpreter and, and interpreting the words differently. I would totally be in that bucket. I'd be like, I want to see the interpreter. The words on the screen and the interpreter and hear your voice and look at the slide.

I want to have as much sensory experience as possible to stay engaged in this meeting. Right. And so it's just been so cool to, to attack the problem of, of, of patients with a creativity and a curiosity around how can we do this differently like not only what are the benefits of it. 

Clare Kumar: Maybe it's more effective.

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah, exactly. Like we could easily talk about the business case for having a more diverse workforce, you know, innovation, creativity, problem solving, less groupthink, all the things, which I think people on some level know, but then there's, there's more nuance to it, there's more engagement in the conversation about.

About preferences and intersectionality and agency that I think make it a little bit more interesting and less boring and thus hopefully people will become less impatient. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. I love that thought. Love that thought. 

Clare Kumar: Okay. So many things to go back to one touch point before we come to Neuroqueering, because I want to talk about that.

When I interviewed Judy Singer, and there's a lot of controversy around Judy and her positions and way of articulating things now, one of the things she said to me around language was that if you want to use a term, check with the people that are using the term to see if you belong there. And it puzzled me a little bit.

So as a highly sensitive person wanting to be considered neurodivergent, because the conversation is on the table about neurodivergency and I don't want to be left out of the conversation, personal motivation. I asked her about high sensitivity. Do you think it's included in neurodivergency or not?

Her response was that she wasn't a psychologist, so she couldn't comment. When I talk to other people in different spheres too, they don't want to, they don't want to comment, don't want to comment. 

And so I'm like, how can, how can I wrestle with this? When it makes sense to me that neurodivergency totally applies to high sensitivity, the way I see it in the context of North American culture right now so how can it not be, and but this concept of a language of a group needing to say, I'll let you in.

Pasha Marlowe: No.

Clare Kumar: I just, I was like, huh, really? 

Pasha Marlowe: No, I don't like that gatekeeping dynamic. I think that exists quite a bit in, in the neurodivergent dialogue. And I think because it's so darn personal for people that people want to be. respected and understood and I identified the way they want. I'm kind of expanding this into also the LGBTQIA and queer community, which will transition into your neuroqueering question.

Clare Kumar: Thank you. I love how you're holding all the things. 

Pasha Marlowe: Trying to, but I don't think you could be sorry, Judy Singer, neurodiversity affirming and not be. And not be LGBTQIA affirming. So, end of end, come to the elephant in the room about some of the transphobic comments that Judy has made.

You know, if somebody says they are trans, Believe them. Like if somebody says they have ADHD, I think we should believe them. Right? I don't think that we should get into a, like academic exercise to ultimately reject and challenge that person's identity. I, I just think that there's way too much harm in that.

Pasha Marlowe: I don't think it does any good. 

Clare Kumar: It's a real, I don't think I want to get into that big conversation right now because it's, well, it's very sensitive. 

Pasha Marlowe: That’s okay.

I think what I will take away from that discussion was there was a clinging to language and identity from a perspective of it making sense and trying to make sense of the world and it'd be right more than there was any appetite for someone to be who they want to be. 

So it was really, it was really about the nomenclature. That was the struggle. And my point in the discussion was, but if there are only a few options in society, if the words don't exist, and there's only two bathrooms, for example, someone's forced to make a choice.

You're forced to make a choice. And that in some situations makes one person uncomfortable and it might make another person uncomfortable. And until we have inclusive design, supporting the options. That people are looking for to show up and be comfortable, we're going to have tension. We're going to have people of one sort or another feeling uncomfortable in a place.

And for that, I'm very sad. And I'm hoping that as we design bathrooms in particular, that we're going to have more options so more people can feel very at home to be where they want to be. 

Pasha Marlowe: I imagine and especially because with each generation, they identify more and more as neurodivergent and disabled and queer, like a third of millennials and then a half of Gen Z and who knows with Gen Alpha.

And so, I think the direction we're moving is gender neutral bathrooms, unisex clothes, like we're away from the binaries completely, in conversation, in language and in design. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah, and I think it's going to be easier and there won't be such tug of war. Because there will be room for everyone to be comfortable.

Please and thank you. Like that's, that's, that's where, that's where we're aiming. So the aim in my opinion is nevermind the labels. And we get the inclusive design. And we get people to find where they want to be and be able to give their gifts to the world. Like that's, that's this flow in all of that.

And there's cat, there's cats on my desk. Just so you know, you did see, you're watching that was, that was Ellie’s tail. Okay, just to show, bring them into the conversation here. We have Theo here passed out on this side, and in cat stereo land, we have Ellie over here. So we have them both, they love, they love to come when I'm in conversation.

Pasha Marlowe: Of course, they feel the energy, right? The energy of your enthusiasm, right? I love it. I love it. And neuroqueering, by the way. 

Clare Kumar: Yes. Yes. 

Pasha Marlowe: Is not just, It's a neurodivergent and queer person. It's not just about neurodiversity and queerness. Neuroqueering is about looking at the world through the lens of neurodiversity and queerness, but also neuronormativity and and all the norms, cis normativity, hetero normativity, and queering and queering them.

And so anybody can be neuroqueer. There are a lot of people who do identify as neuroqueer because they Identify as neurodivergent and queer, but there's also this sense of like, wait a minute, everything I learned isn't true. Let's queer everything. Let's queer education. Let's queer relationships. Let's queer business.

Let's, let's queer these things in terms of questioning and subverting. 

Clare Kumar: Well, it comes from query. Like to create exactly something. Right? Exactly. So it, I have to say, so I looked at Nick Walker's writing. Oh yeah. I was like, oh, I get it now. 'cause yes, absolutely. I thought, well, there's intersectionality. We've got neurodistinct, neurodivergent and queer. So neuro queerer, ta-da. Oh no, that's not it. It's the sense of saying we're it's challenging normativity from a neurological perspective. 

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah. Yeah. And querying it as in querying and questioning. Yeah. Really all the ways our society and culture functions.

And so, yeah, I think it's, I think it's very expansive and I definitely get lit up by that and, and the younger generations really resonate with the neuroqueering practice and identity of neuroqueer. And so to talk to a Gen Zer who's like. Oh, yeah, I understand neuroqueer and I identify as neuroqueer and they've, they've read about neuroqueering and it's just like a lifestyle almost because you want to start to then de center white voices and amplify more, you know, queer voices, amplify BIPOC voices, amplify voices that are underrepresented in general.

And that's exciting. That's exciting. That's part of the neuroqueering. Practice. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. So Nick Walker was writing in some detail about this. Who else is out there besides yourself, obviously talking about this. Like if somebody is listening in different generations and looking for who are the people I would follow on TikTok or who I, who would I, who would I look for that speaking out about this?

I mean, Margaret, I think it's, it's Maureen Dunne that's just written a book. On neurodiversity at work and also Ludmila Praslova who I've had on the podcast, so there's some voices in that space. In the younger generation, not yet writing the business books around it, who's talking about this that you would say would be a great follow?

Pasha Marlowe: I haven't found too many people talking about NeuroQueer. I'm at NeuroQueer Coach, so I tend to be at the top of that search engine. And Nick Walker as well. So look for Pasha Marlowe at NeuroQueer Coach. Yes, but I try to remember the, the name. There's a podcast and one of the co-hosts is Dr. Neff, N E F F, and I'm sorry, I can't remember her first name. 

Divergent Minds might be the podcast. I know that, that she identifies as autistic, and they talk a lot on that podcast about the intersection. of neurodivergence and queerness, and then of course, all these brilliant names are escaping me right now, but it's interesting because, like, this one person, like, who wrote the Canary Code, 

Clare Kumar: Ludmila Praslova.

Pasha Marlowe: Ludmila, such a beautiful name is really specific to, to workspaces.

Right. And then Maureen does a beautiful job talking about neurodivergence and disability and and kind of the community responsibility and justice around it. And so I feel like we're all really taking and, and Sonny Jane Wise, as I was mentioning, they talk a lot about the breaking down of neuronormativity and Yeah.

Pasha Marlowe: There's so many creators that are spinning around my head. Like I really liked Jamie Shields. He's mostly on LinkedIn disabled by society is his, is his business. And he does a beautiful job at teaching through graphics. He's a registered blind person who teaches through graphics about neurodiversity and mostly disability experience.

Pasha Marlowe: Just, there's so, there's so many cool people to, to follow and talk to. And then I don't know their name black autistic creator. Who at N G W A G W A, I can't remember their first name. I'm sorry. N G W A G W A. But that's the creator that's been through the black disabled led talking about neuroexpansive as a potential word as an alternative to neurodivergent.

So there's just so many cool creators and thought leaders, And also nonlinear thinkers. I just joined the Octopus Movement, which is like this whole movement of 5,000 nonlinear thinkers who love to queer everything and it's so fascinating. So I encourage people in the audience to expand beyond the conversation about ADHD and autism to expand beyond the conversation about neurodiversity. To listen to voices that aren't white. To listen to voices that are talking about intersectionality and justice movements. It's really fascinating. 

Clare Kumar: Thank you so much. I think, I think we've gone through the questions that I had. I had notes and highlights and blocks on here.

How, my final question, I think, is how enthused are you for what you're noticing right now, where we are in 2024 right now, having this conversation? How excited are you about what's coming? 

Pasha Marlowe: I'm a little nervous about what's coming in the immediate future in 2024 in my country, the United States, however in the world of neurodiversity, I'm excited.

The conversation that I'm most excited about aligned with right now is creating cultures of neuroinclusion, which isn't just in the workplace. It's creating cultures of neuroinclusion also in homes and schools. And I would say even in the spaces between our ears and our minds. So, cause I really feel like we need to get to the root of why there's so much stigma and pathology conversation.

And so talking, talking to children and to parents and to teachers. And I get really excited about going to conferences and talking to the people who are up and coming leaders in their generation of field. And so I'm very excited and I feel like it's endlessly expansive to talk about creating cultures of neuro inclusion, which also includes disability and psychological safety and mental health and intersecting all of those and intersectionality.

And so that wakes me up every morning, no kidding, I wake up excited to learn and unlearn and write and read. I've never felt that way in all of my many, many careers as an ADHDer. We all have so many. And in none of my careers was I so excited to learn and unlearn to the extent that I find myself often forgetting to go outside or to rest or to eat or to play because I can get so consumed and absorbed in my work.

Clare Kumar: Oh the rabbit holes. Yes. Yeah. No, I feel, I feel for you. I feel the motivation. I feel the excitement. I also feel like we're on the cusp of organizations recognizing they have to pay attention, not just because the business case is good. Because it makes sense from a business bottom line perspective to have a diverse and respected workforce.

Not because we're seeing more leaders in the organization self disclose about their needs because they found out because their kid was diagnosed or whatever the path to this embracing of it, but also because there's a lot more lawsuits. And actually naming it. We've got legislation that is now being enforced to an exponential degree.

There's in the UK, it was 2016. There were three cases. That went to tribunal, three judgments that were made that referenced neurodiversity in 2023, the number rose to 278. 

Pasha Marlowe: There's some awareness and action. 

Clare Kumar: Kaboom. Right. So I think there's a trifecta of motivation happening here with the business case with the, the grassroots, like, oh my God, this just makes sense.

And with a legislative push for the people that are finding it hard to see in other ways. So I think we'll have a groundswell of momentum based on those three things that I think is going to mean that you're going to be very busy coming up. And I hope so. Yeah, yeah, that's the goal. Yes, yes, 

Pasha Marlowe: I definitely am seeing a movement in HR and in universities and colleges you know, wanting specifically to talk about neuroinclusion, which again, combines that neurodiversity and disability inclusion and psychological safety and mental health.

It's, it's really because you can't separate them. Right? Yeah. If I go in and only talk about diversity of thought, it's not the whole picture, and so I, I think there's more awareness around it. I'm definitely seeing, in the conferences I speak at and in the, in the summits I present to people very excited and usually they're sold out sessions and people and today I had 66 new messages in the last hour on LinkedIn alone saying, I need to understand this more and I need you to come to my organization to talk to us about neuroinclusion.

And so it's coming. It's coming. It's been, you know, 

Clare Kumar: I'm excited for it because to this point, I've been feeling like we've been in ERG land and ERGs. I love the work that ERGs are doing, but often I feel it's on the backs of the people who are already marginalized. Exactly. And with no budgets or low budgets.

Very true. And, and it means that the speakers in this space are also expected to be no budget, low budget speakers. You got it. I didn't work this hard for, so there, there needs to be some sustainability here and some respect for the people that are in the conversation doing the work. 

Pasha Marlowe: Absolutely. So if you have an opportunity and you're listening as an organization.

Clare Kumar: Look at the conversation you're trying to have. 

Pasha Marlowe: Yeah. 

Clare Kumar: Look at who you're trying to support and please invest in it. Yes, invest in it because everybody who's been in a marginalized group has been paying tax already and it's been harder to get where they are. So please don't ask them to pay more tax.

Please, if anything, think about how to reward them and keep their energy up because it's probably cost them more to get right there. 

Pasha Marlowe: So true. Costs more to get there. Costs longer and more time and energy to recover from, from the presentation, be it virtual or live. Yes. I'm so glad you said all that. It's so true. Agreed. Amen. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. All right. So let's keep, I'm thrilled to be working alongside you in this mission. And listeners, if you want to find me. When you want to go look at at Pasha Marlowe, Pasha, tell us where people should go right away to find out. 

Pasha Marlowe: LinkedIn is really where I live the most right now.

And I'm at Pasha Marlowe on LinkedIn. Certainly I've, you can go to my website too, PashaMarlowe.com but I'm also on for those that like Instagram at NeuroQueerCoach. 

Clare Kumar: NeuroQueerCoach. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you, Pasha Marlowe, for joining me, for enlightening me to a greater depth of understanding about language and identity and an expansive perspective on the topic.

Pasha Marlowe: Thank you so much for having me, Clare. It's been so much fun. I hope to do it again soon.