Episode 22 – surviving social anxiety – with Russell Norris

Russell Norris: I found that more people knew the less of a secret I had to carry around anymore. So I worried less about people noticing that I was blushing once more people knew about it, but the response, in general, has been, “I had no idea this affected you so much.”

Clare Kumar: You are listening to episode 22 of the Happy Space Podcast where productivity meets inclusivity.

Today we're exploring surviving social anxiety with author of “Red Face”, Russell Norris.

Welcome to the Happy Space Podcast, where productivity meets inclusivity, and everyone gets things done. Hello, I’m Clare Kumar: highly sensitive executive coach, speaker, and your host. Studies show that diversity leads to better business outcomes, so doesn’t it make sense to invite everyone’s richest contributions? Yet, too many people are invited to burn out or opt-out, and we are squandering talent. On this show, we’ll explore a two-part solution. Part one: cultivating sustainable performance, the individual design of work and life to preserve our energy so we can keep contributing. And two: designing inclusive performance, the design of spaces, cultures, products and services which invite the richest participation. I hope you enjoy these conversations and find inspiration and encouragement, for everyone deserves a Happy Space. 

Imagine you're not just shy, but actually debilitatingly paralyzed at the thought of interacting with other people. That's what Russell Norris describes when he talks about his journey with social anxiety. He's the author of “Red Face, How I Learned to Live With Social Anxiety” and my guest today, and we go through a fascinating discussion to learn more about what his struggle was really like and some of the strategies that he tried and found successful and some that maybe didn't work so well as well in his journey to be able to live successfully with this challenge. It was a fascinating discussion and I urge you to not only have a listen to our conversation today, but also to check out his book. It's a wonderful picture of this challenge, which afflicts many, many people. And also useful for anybody that's looking to build skills at self-regulation.

So this podcast is around, as you know, the intersection of productivity and inclusivity. And there are strategies in here that are really around that self-development journey to be able to perform at our best. And I'm hoping also it will give leaders and shape, culture shapers an idea of what it is like to live with social anxiety, how we might recognize it, and how we might invite those people to participate more fully. All right. Enjoy today's episode.

Russell, welcome to the Happy Space Podcast. I am so thrilled that you're joining us today to explore this challenge around social anxiety, which you've lived and journeyed through, and really evolved in the way you deal with it. And I wanted to really have you here because I know listeners out there are feeling a lot of the same things, especially post covid. And I thought perhaps we could start with an invitation to share a little bit about your story. You wrote a book called “Red Face, How I Learned to Live with Social Anxiety”, and I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about your story and what led you to writing the book.

Russell Norris: Absolutely. Yes. Hi Clare. Thanks for having me. My name's Russell, as you said, I'm 42 years old. I'm based in London, in the UK. I'm a copywriter. That's how I make my living. I write commercial words for a living. but you're right in saying I wrote a book. I also wrote my first piece of non-fiction, about a year and a half ago.

It's book you just mentioned, “Red Face, How I Learned to Live with Social Anxiety”. it basically talks about something I had struggled with for most of my life from early teenage years onwards, into university and into the workplace. and that is a struggle with social anxiety. So I've always been a very socially anxious person, and I had it diagnosed when I was in my early twenties.

I have something associated with that, which is called erythrophobia, and that's the fear of blushing. So for me, social anxiety manifests itself in blushes and going red quite easily in socially stressful situations, and I developed a phobia of that to the point where I was afraid to be around people cause I didn't want to blush in front of them.

And it had quite a negative impact on my life for many years. And I think that's what led me to write the book because I knew I had a story inside me that I wanted to share. I also knew that when I was younger and even in my twenties, thirties, when I was in the workplace, I remember looking for books on blushing, looking for resources and never really finding anything.

I found a few books written by doctors and therapists, which helped, but were very, detached, is the word I'm going to use. they didn't necessarily reflect what I was going through as the person struggling with it. I wanted something written from the Blushers point of view. And I couldn't find it.

And so I thought, well, I, I know all about that. and the advice you're often given when you're writing a book is write about what you know. Yeah. and I thought I really knew this inside out because it was a secret I'd been keeping for many, many years that really bothered me on a very deep level.

And I wanted to kind of exercise that and get it out and written down. Not just to raise awareness of social anxiety and blushing and how it can affect people negatively. But also to put that book out there for other people who might be looking for some help and support, so I guess that's why I decided to do it, and I'm really glad I found a publisher who made that possible.

And I'm glad the book found its way to you, Clare, as well. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah, it did. It was through Paul Shepherd who was in an earlier episode and talking about his own challenges around anxiety. And he said, “I think Russell would be an amazing conversation to have”. And certainly, when we spoke earlier, I knew right away.

Yes. It's a fascinating conversation and I have to say, after reading the book that your skill as a copywriter and love of language clearly transcends into the written, in this form, into the book as well. So I think you were perfectly poised. I don't know how many blushers out there are also so adept with words, so I don't know if that's maybe why there wasn't a book, but I, applaud your recognition that there wasa need there.

Because what struck me and what you just said is, you knew you were socially anxious as a teen. You weren't diagnosed until your early twenties. And so I'm curious sort of pre-diagnosis, post-diagnosis, what was the value to you of a diagnosis itself? 

Russell Norris: I think it was very valuable to me at the time. It took me a long time to push myself forward and speak to a doctor. Speak to my GP, my general practitioner, because part of the difficulty with being socially anxious is you don't want to put yourself in situations that make you more socially anxious and sitting in a room with a doctor talking about the fact that you blush and you're afraid of people isn't a very comfortable experience.

So iit's hard to take that first step and to speak to someone, especially a doctor. But I'm glad I did because my GP recognized what I was talking about and he said, “I think you're showing symptoms of social anxiety”. And he gave it a name and that helped me call knowing it was called something and that I was being affected by it, and that it wasn't just something I on my own was going through and struggling with.

Yeah. That really helped knowing what it was and that it had a, a description and a, you know, a name. and he, he gave me the diagnosis, also put me on some medication, which possibly wasn't right for me at the time. this was about 20, 25 years ago. It was quite a long time ago. and I was, I think, my GP was very quick to put me on medication rather than suggesting therapy or anything like that.

And, you know, I was very young. I was, I was about 20 years old when I was speaking to the doctor, so, you know, whatever he said I did. And he prescribed antidepressants, which, looking back on it, I don't think was, was necessarily the right move for me at the time. cause I went on a course of antidepressants and it didn't have the desired effect for me.

After moving forwards from that, and at least knowing that I had something going on inside me called social anxiety definitely helped a lot. And especially knowing that it affects other people too. Even though I couldn't readily see those people, I was made aware that it is a condition and other people do struggle with it.

So diagnosis was an important moment. I would say for me. It began that long road of self-acceptance, you know, accepting that. I am a person who has social anxiety, but I don't want to let it define me for the rest of my life. It did take a long time to come to that conclusion, but I think it all starts with that diagnosis or, you know, stepping outside of yourself and speaking to someone about it. So that was a very interesting point. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I, think you hit on validation that there's something, it's not a figment of my imagination. This is the thing, and feeling less alone. it's interesting as in the work that I'm doing sort of advocating for more inclusivity in the workplace and communities in education, I also do say get away from the labels, but the label is an empowering step in self-awareness.

And then having a language and, and a root of discovery, even if it leads you down some paths sometimes that are not a right fit, which is what you were saying there. I've been reading, I don't know if you've heard of the book, “The Myth of Normal” by Gabor Mate. It's a fairly recent book to come out and, he's a very well-known Canadian physician who's written numerous books.

And in the book he talks about. How when we have challenges, which are sometimes called diseases, he challenges that sometimes it's a normal expression related to whatever we've been through in our own upbringing or maybe even intergenerational trauma. There's lots of causes of some of the ways we are that are entirely normal, so he doesn't want to call a lot of them diseases.

And he does talk about, sort of the gap in the physician world to say, is there anything going on Russell that might have, you know, be difficult or might be causing stress, or might be causing some of the challenges, you know, that you're, that you're facing. So it's interesting. I really, applaud looking at this holistically.

You mentioned that the antidepressants weren't really effective to help in this situation. What did you turn to and what did you find to be effective in helping your journey beyond self-acceptance to real, you know, really successful self-regulation?. 

Russell Norris: So as I say, the antidepressants, I didn't enjoy the experience of antidepressants, so, I mean, I was still very young at the time when I took them, you know, I was 20, 21 years old. But yeah, I didn't enjoy the way they made me feel, or the lack of feeling that they gave me. Yeah, I kind of felt numbed and a bit zombie-like when I was on antidepressants, and I didn't enjoy that experience. It was like, it took away my anxiety, but it also took away the rest of me as well.

Clare Kumar: Did it affect your creativity too?

Russell Norris: Yeah, absolutely. So, it took away the things I liked about myself as well as the things I disliked. It was a very strong effect on me and I didn't enjoy it, so I eventually came off those, And unfortunately because I was still young and in my early twenties, I took to some not-so-good coping strategies and that that's something I talk about in the book.

So I drank far too much in my youth. I used to rely too much on alcohol to get through social situations. Yeah. and that got to an unhealthy place where I would sometimes drink before going to work in the morning, because I knew I would have a big meeting coming up or I would have a stressful workshop coming or something like that.

And I'd be dreading it so much that I would drink before going to work. And that lasted for a while until I couldn't really sustain it any longer in it, it was taking a toll on my health.

Clare Kumar: You tell me, can we pause there for a second because Gabor talks about this in his book as well, talks about addiction. He's written a whole book on addiction. He's also saying this is normal. Our response to stressors is to choose a path to less stress and some feeling of comfort and less stress. So could you describe a little bit, because I have a personal, other note I'm going to add afterwards, but what does alcohol, what did it do for you that helped you feel more comfortable in that work situation?

Russell Norris: I think it's two things. Really, it’s the body and the mind. So when I drink alcohol, well, I reach a certain point after a few drinks where I'm much less likely to blush. My blush response gets numbed, I suppose you'd say. So I'm not so quick to blush, not so easy to blush, and it makes me feel more confident.

So I guess it's a physical reduction of blushing which makes me feel more confident as a person. So the drinking has that effect of confidence. I feel more confident. I feel more able to hold my own in a group setting. and I care less about what others think after I've had a few drinks.

Yeah. I guess that's lowering your inhibitions, I suppose, is what you'd call it. But a difficult tightrope to walk because if you drink too much, you're suddenly drunk in the workplace. And then, that's completely unacceptable. I mean, drinking full stop at work is, is never a good idea.

But I often thought that because no one was noticing I'd been drinking at work, that I could get away with it, that I could keep going, and eventually that plan just fell apart. Someone noticed I was drinking at work and I was very embarrassed by that, and I quickly course-corrected after that.

Clare Kumar: Well, we're tribal animals, if you will. We need our social connections and they help regulate our behaviour. We can try and conform to social norms. Hopefully they're healthy social norms for us, what I was remarking on just recently though, it's, I have a book club that I love and we've been together, I don't know, 14 years or something.

We get together, we read the odd book, which is good, but we also get together socially as well, and, they have noticed, and I've noticed my sensitivity to stimulation has been increasing over the years, and sometimes bright lights will be too much for me and noise will be too much, and I will choose to opt out of situations because I'm overstimulated and I manage around that.

Well, one night we went out to a very loud bar. And with a couple of drinks, I was making probably more noise than anything else. So I was like, wait a minute. And somebody said, well, wait a minute, what happened to your sensitivity? And I said, well, I'm drunk now. So it's gone out the window. And I've never really thought of it as, and I honestly, I don't drink very often and I don't, I very rarely get, to that point of being tipsy.

Tipsy Plus, I would say. And so it was eye-opening to me and when I was reading in your book about alcohol, I thought, oh, this is interesting. The effect it can have to suppress inhibition and maybe also it suppressed my sensitivity and I was able to, relax in a different way. And it's not going to be a path I'm compelled to pursue as a way to regulate.

But it just struck me as an interesting observation that I found myself less sensitive in that environment and was able to enjoy being in a really raucous, really raucous environment. 

Russell Norris: And it's, it, it's a short-term fix though. I guess a, as with anything you kind of consume to try and, you know, solve a problem. It's, good while it lasts, but it's always going to wear off. So it kind of comes at a price, if you drink too much, you know it's going to affect you in other ways. but also it's like a bandaid, you know, sticking it over the problem. It's not actually addressing the real problem underneath. Which for me was social anxiety and, you know, drinking would reduce that fear temporarily. So I could walk by and get through those situations, but it wasn't ever going to stop the social anxiety, you know, it's not a silver bullet, not a cure, and I think I just relied on it way too heavily at certain points.

We have a very, drinking-driven culture in the UK as well. There's a lot of drinking and alcohol and it's generally acceptable to drink heavily over here and it happens a lot after work. And it's just ingrained in culture, not, not just, well, across the UK: Scotland, island, England, we do drink a fair amount. So it is kind of easy to drift through that kind of society whilst relying too much on alcohol and no red flags get raised because it's kind of the norm. 

Clare Kumar: I lived in Japan for a while too, and absolutely socially expected to go out for drinks after work and you keep up with the boss and if he's going under the table, so are you kinda thing. The social norms that we're in all of a sudden make it okay. It's interesting. I liked Gabor Mate's question around addiction rather than saying, you know, you've got an illness. What's the substance doing for you? What's it giving you? And is there a way to achieve that in a different way, in a way that's not, you know, bringing down mind, body, spirit, because yes, you're right. There is a price to pay for too much alcohol and it's usually the next morning and it's difficult. So, can we talk about where, what you grew to in terms of understanding, more helpful ways to regulate that, to notice that anxiety. And what do you do now? What have you evolved to in taking care of yourself here?

Russell Norris: So where I've evolved to now, just sticking with, substances first or medication, I eventually arrived at a place where I was prescribed beta blockers. Which is something you can take before giving a speech, or, or actors often take them before going out on stage. It reduces trembling, and it reduces the physical symptoms of being nervous. So it stops your palms from sweating or, or it stops you from trembling. And for me, and for people who blush, it reduces your blush response, it makes you less sensitive to blushing. so I found, if I took one or two beta lockers, about an hour before I had to go and lead a meeting at work, or before I took my driving test, I had some beta blockers because it was affecting my driving because I was so sensitive to everything going on around me while I drove that I was shaking and sweating and I couldn't concentrate on controlling the car. So I had beta blockers and they, they really helped me and I found out through my doctor there's, it's very, it's a very common medication to take as and when needed for stressful situations and for me.

They've really helped. Whenever I need to stand up in a room and say something to lots of people. But above and beyond that, I also leaned in heavily to exercise. I know that sounds very obvious, but the mind and the body are so closely connected that I realized if I go for a long run or a jog, I've always been a runner.

That's my thing. I go out, put the headphones on and run for a long time in all kinds of weather. And when I do that, my blood pressure lowers considerably. And for the rest of the day, I feel much less anxious and much less likely to blush. So it has an effect on my mind. It makes me feel clear-minded and ready to, you know, face the day or face the situation.

A social situation. Yeah. But it also reduces my physical signs of being nervous, so it's kind of a double plus. And it's just made me lean in to, you know, cardio exercise a lot more because it really helps me mentally and physically. and I started to use that strategically. So if I had a big meeting coming up, I'd make sure I exercised beforehand if I could. And that would really make a big difference for me. So yeah, strategic exercise helped. Beta-blockers have helped me in the past. And self-acceptance. I think we touched on that a bit earlier. But reaching a point in life where I started saying to myself, this is just who you are.

This is how you were born. This is the hand genetics has dealt you. Yeah. try and look for the positives that it brings to your life, and don't look at it as something you've been cursed with. I try and see the blessings instead of the curse. Yes. because it can feel at times. When you are in a room and you are the only one who's bright, red and anxious and not wanting to be there, you can feel like it's a bit of a personal curse that's been put on you and no one else.

You feel different and singled out and not able to perform like other people, and you start wondering what's wrong with you? You know, why was I made this way? How can I get quote-unquote better? So accepting that I'm very quick to blush and that my skin might go red and that it's no big deal.

That's the crucial bit that it's no big deal, has also had a big effect on me mentally because it's made me worry less about the blushing. But the worrying is partly what drives it. You know, you start to worry about it in advance of it happening. So if you can break that cycle of worrying in advance, I am much more, much less likely to actually blush in public. So mixture there of kind of physical and mental approaches, which have helped me. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah, really powerful combination. I wonder if we can dig into this journey of self-acceptance to understand a little bit more about, was there a moment you realized it, was it a slow build? What do you think led you to the place to say it's no big deal? 

Russell Norris: I think it was a slow build. I think it took time for me to reach that mindset. I've been, since writing my book, I've been in touch with lots of people who blush and have social anxiety.

I've had so many people reach out. And I've been invited to lots of support groups and forums and it's been amazing speaking to so many other people. But I do notice a common theme, especially amongst younger people, and that is they're looking for a quick fix. Something that will quickly help them stop blushing, or make blushing go away forever.

And I have to always explain that I have found out, through my own experience, that I needed time to understand that there is no quick fix. There is no silver bullet. You can't just snap your fingers one day and not be a blusher. Hard cause it's hardwired into your nervous system. So I took time to reach that point.

But if I were to try and put it down to a specific thing, I'd probably say it's when I became a parent. When I became a dad, I suddenly felt like my world expanded considerably and it wasn't all about me anymore. It was about the people I'm now responsible for, and the kind of life I want them to lead.

So I found myself focusing much less on myself and how I was reacting to other people, and I was much more kind of embedded in my kids' lives. And even through my kids, I've been pushed into wider social circles. You know, I'm quite a shy person. If I can not go out and meet new people, I tend to take that path.

I would be happy staying at home with a book or watching a movie. But when you have kids, you have to go out and take them to their sports clubs and you know, you have to go to parents evenings and you have to go to birthday parties. And it's pushed me into many situations that in the past I wouldn't have been in or I would've avoided. And that in its own way has been like a kind of exposure therapy where it's put me in the situations that I don't feel comfortable in. And over time I've become more comfortable just through the fact that it happens so often.

Clare Kumar: What a gift. 

Russell Norris: Yeah, I mean, a real gift, and again, it might, it might sound obvious, you know, my life changed when I had kids, but it really did help me focus on other things instead of the voice inside my own head that was always telling me, “everyone's looking at me, everyone's thinking about what I'm doing, how I'm looking right now.”

I think a combination of age and having kids has helped me care less about that side of things, which has helped me overcome a lot of the social anxiety. 

Clare Kumar: Yeah. Gave you a purpose to care about the kids and go on a self-development journey for them, which has benefited you as well. That's really powerful when we can kind of get out of our own way a little bit, you know, or find a path, a motivation to do that. The quick fix thing is… I think there can be mindset shift moments where we have a realization, oh, there's a new focus and then there's a build and there's a slow skill building involved and practice. I think a lot of this is practicing and discovering and be willing, be brave, to play with it. Do you think bravery played a role in your journey? 

Russell Norris: I think so. I think it can feel like bravery sometimes if you're socially anxious just to turn up to an event, that can feel brave just to walk into the room.

I, at one point in life, when I first went into the workplace, I had a phobia of entering rooms. I didn't like to walk through a door when I knew there'd be people on the other side who would turn around and look at me. I developed a real fear of that and it was troubling cause I couldn't walk into rooms.

I would avoid going in to some people. so bravery certainly has a lot to do with it and I think, you know, there are different grades of bravery, and bravery is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. There is definitely a case of taking as much courage as you can to accept who you are.

But also even to maybe speak to other people about who you are. I found that a very difficult step, speaking to someone about how troubled I was, about being socially anxious. even that in itself is brave for someone who blushes or who is afraid of being in social situations and can't, they don't think they can speak to someone about it. Stepping up to have that conversation with another human being, it takes a lot of effort and I applaud any person who does. Because that's the important first step, towards, you know, growing as a person. 

Clare Kumar: Let's explore that just for, we have a few minutes left and I want to explore the, the reactions you've had when you've spoken up and, maybe even a little bit about the language that you used, because I don't think we're modeled this. There aren't videos how to speak up about X, Y, and Z and when we're feeling othered, when we're feeling different, or hearing some language, can be really helpful. So what did you come to and how, how was it received? 

Russell Norris: I have found personally that the more people I told about my problem, the better I felt. You think that might not work from a socially anxious perspective, like to have more people knowing about the problem, but I found that more people knew, the less of a secret I had to carry around anymore. So I worried less about people noticing that I was blushing once every, you know, more people knew about it, but the response in general has been, “I had no idea this affected you so much”. That's been the most common response. Like, “I had no idea this was such a big issue for you internally”.

I, you know, people might say, I've known that you're a bit, you know, red at times, but I never realized it was driving all the decisions you made early on in life. Or that it was driving, you know, the direction you took in your career in relationships. They had no idea about that, how severe it was.

And I guess that just hammer saying that you never truly know what's going on inside a person unless they let you know, which is why speaking is so important. But the response, yeah, that's broadly the response from people I knew. From colleagues and friends and even family, you know, “we didn't know this was so, so troubling to you”.

From people, I don't know, absolute strangers. It's been an incredible response of solidarity, really. people saying they recognize themselves in a lot of what I'd written, that they've done the same things as me. That parts of the story sounded just like their own story. I'm really pleased when I hear things like that because I did want to, you know, find the people who can benefit the most. It's like I was saying before, writing a book, that perhaps wasn't there when I was younger, and I'm glad that others are finding that book and finding something useful in it. I have found a problem shared has been a problem halved for me.

Clare Kumar: I love that a problem shared has been a problem halved. Yeah, that's a great quote. What I hear in what you said is disclosure invited compassion.

Russell Norris: It did, and it kind of helped put that voice in my head to rest. You know, that said, everyone's judging you, everyone thinks you are a weirdo, people think you can't perform or that you're just a bit strange.It turns out no one's really thinking that at all. Most people are on your side. You don't really have enemies out there. And I went through a great deal of paranoia when I was younger because I was so worried about what other people thought.

Clare Kumar: You've find most people are just worried about themselves.

Russell Norris: Exactly. But it’s pushed me outside myself. And yeah, to hear those responses from other people has also been validating too.

Clare Kumar: I'm really glad for you to share your story here, to invite those who resonate and identify with social anxiety, for sure, you need to read this book, but there's a parallel journey for anyone with a struggle, and you make me think of, you know, it took me seven years to be able to say out loud publicly that I have MS. I thought no one will hire me. I'm taboo. And there are certain environments where you do find someone who just is not willing to be open.

But that's very few and far between. I think the overall benefit is feeling understood. It's raising awareness. When I talk about it now, I always hear, oh, my mom, my sister, my friend, my employee, my boss. I hear the stories and I think this is why I was really happy to have you, on this show to raise awareness about social anxiety, about blushing.

I had never thought of it in this context as well. You know, we have introverted preferring to be alone. We have shy… Is it shy, mild social anxiety? Is that in the continuum of social anxiety or do you define it differently? I mean, that's my final question for you also, just clarifying that piece.

Russell Norris: Yeah. It's hard to draw hard lines between things. Yeah. But I'll definitely a scale, I think shyness probably is quite natural to most people at certain points, certain periods in certain situations. but social anxiety tips into a slightly different place, I think because you start to fear any kind of contact with anyone.

And it's not just shyness in certain situations, it's fear in every situation which can become debilitating if it's not, you know, checked in on. And actually one final point for me, Clare, just to say a big deal as well, having written the book is that I'm, I'm hearing a lot from men who otherwise would never speak to anyone about what they're going through. Yeah. a lot of men who have said, you know, “I don't feel comfortable even talking to my partner about some of this”, and they feel comfortable sending me an email to talk about what they've been going through. And they're men not talking about mental health.

Men keeping things bottled up is a continuing problem. In the UK for sure. I think culturally it's a problem in many countries. And so this is my small contribution to encouraging more men to speak about mental health. and not seeing it as a weakness, but as a strength that they do speak out.

Clare Kumar: You're not wrong. We're socially conditioned to expect men to be expressionless. If you will, like, you know, really tough and not owning their sensitivity. And we need to make room for the strength of the feminine and the sensitivity of the masculine to be really, really fully present and full human beings with that breadth of experience.

So thank you. Thank you so much. Where should people find you? Do you want to share your email or do you have a website or something? What would you like to share with people now? And we'll put all the links of course, in the show notes, but what would you like to share now? 

Russell Norris: The best place to reach me directly is on Twitter, so you can find me @ruzz_norris. That's the best place if anyone wants, you know, some dialogue, or they can go through my publisher, but the quicker way is just to jump onto Twitter and just directly message me.

Clare Kumar: Fabulous. Okay. So @ruzz_norris, stay tuned for some comments for sure. And thank you so much Russell, for writing the book and for sharing your gift and journey. it's going to invite so much growth and connection for so many people. Thank you so much.

Russell Norris: Thanks for having me. It's been great chatting.

Clare Kumar: Thank you so much for listening. You can find all of the Happy Space Podcast episodes over at happyspacepod.com. That is also where you'll find a link to our online community. Please leave a review over at Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you tune in, and if you liked what you heard, please share. After all, doesn't everyone deserve a Happy Space?